This is going to be a long post.

But it seems we can’t really dodge the issue of who Jesus actually was, how he got so popular, who his followers really were, and the modus operandi the xtians used to subvert Torah and the Jewish community.

Before we begin, I have to stress again that THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.

How did the original Erev Rav manage to persuade a whole bunch of Jews – who had just seen the open revelation of Hashem at Mount Sinai!!! – to give up on all that, and on the Torah, to start worshipping a golden calf?

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Black magic ‘miracles’ were part of the problem, right from the start.

Evil Micah was one of the Jewish babies that the Egyptians were taking from their mothers, and plastering into the walls. When Moshe asked how a merciful God could allow such a thing to happen, Hashem told him to rescue one of those babies (who were actually very ‘evil’ souls, who need to go through a lot of tikkunim and harsh suffering in order to be rectified), and to see what sort of person he grew up to be.

That person was Micah.

When Moshe Rabbenu raised the bones of Yosef from the Nile, where the Egyptians had sunk his casket as part of their ‘black magic’ to ensure that the Jews would never leave Mitzraim, he threw a placket with the words ‘aleh shor’ (‘rise, ox’) into the water, and Yosef’s bones rose to the surface so the Jews could take him out of Egypt when they left.

Micah stole that placket.

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When Janus and Jambrus, leaders of the Erev Rav, relatives of Bilaam (and some say also descendants of another world-class sorcerer, Lavan) made the golden calf, they killed anyone who tried to stand up to them.

That’s how Hur died.

Aaron then tried to find a way to placate this violent mob so they wouldn’t kill him, too, and went along with their plan to create a golden calf, hoping it would buy enough time for Moshe Rabbenu to return, and take charge.

It takes a long time to make a golden calf derech hateva, without using sorcery.

Especially in the middle of the desert, 3, 333 years ago.

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But what happened? Evil Micah snuck up to where the gold jewellery was all being melted down – and threw in the placket with the words ‘aleh shor’.

Hey presto, a magnificent golden calf instantly formed, that could even move around under its own steam.

Wow!

What a ‘miracle’! What an obvious ‘sign’ that Hashem Himself must want the Israelites to be worshipping the golden calf, because look at that thing!! 

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THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.

The evildoers in our midst, the ‘Erev Rav’ in our midst, have always used black magic, and subverted the holy names of Hashem, and the deepest wisdom of the kabbalah for their own, evil, Satanic ends.

There are two ways you get ‘supernatural miracles’.

One way, is where you spend 60 years in the desert doing hitbodedut all day long, without any miracles happening, while you work on overcoming your bad middot and have a lot of self-sacrifice, mesirut nefesh, to try to serve God properly.

You have no money, a ton of shame and humiliation, no-one is running after you calling you ‘rebbe’; there are no Presidents of the United States who are officially celebrating your birthday, no politicians lining up to call on you, or oligarchs trying to give you $10 million in cash to build a new yeshiva.

This is the path of our true tzaddikim like Moshe Rabbenu.

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Only after that 60 years in the desert, or those 12 years living in a cave, spending your days buried up to your neck in mud, while you spend every moment still trying to serve God amidst the most difficult hardship, do you get to the stage of being a real ‘Tzaddik’.

The sort of Tzaddik that can work open miracles via their prayers, and via their own self-sacrifice and suffering.

Very few people can ever really attain this sort of level.

We are talking about a handful of people throughout the whole of history, who could really ‘perform miracles’ with this level of true kedusha.

But don’t worry!

Because for everyone else, there’s a ton of ‘black magic’ shortcuts for performing open miracles.

And this is where we swing back around to Yoshki, and the Erev Rav, and the Sabbatean-Frankists who are still going strong in our communities today.

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How did Jesus get such a following amongst the Jewish people?

He went to Egypt, learnt black magic there, and started doing a bunch of ‘open miracles’ to persuade the masses he was the real deal.

And alongside that, he also told people what they wanted to hear, and made them ‘feel good’ about themselves, so they wouldn’t have to worry too much about acknowledging their bad middot or having to do the very hard work of really rectifying their souls.

Leave it all to me!  Yoshki told them.

Go back to polishing buttons and watching the football game! All you have to do is to believe that I’m really God incarnate [chas v’halila a billion times] and everything else is taken care of! You can lie, cheat, murder, rape, pillage – whatever you want. But just believe in me, and give me and my institutions lots of charity, and you’re still getting to Heaven!

====

You can see how that would appeal to the masses.

Who wants a ‘heavy’ religion where you have to really take responsibility for fixing your innumerable flaws and where you have to serve Hashem with tremendous mesirut nefesh, and where you are the ‘mat’ that everyone else wipes their feet on?

It’s way more fun to get invited to the White House, and to hang out with Putin, and to have oligarchs paying you millions and billions for reasons that are still not so obvious to everyone else…

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I am still in the process of trying to ‘unpick’ who the historical Jesus really was.

It’s complicated by the fact that there seems to have been two ‘waves’ of early xtianity, and also, by the fact that both the xtian world AND THE JEWISH WORLD have been censoring and distorting what really happened.

But in the rest of this post, I wanted to lay out what we know so far, to try to put Yoshki back into his authentic Jewish context, so we can understand that ‘whitewashing Jesus’ is akin to ‘whitewashing Hitler’, another charismatic leader with Jewish blood who was into the occult and hated authentic Torah Judaism and ‘rabbiners’ with a passion.

Then in part 2, we’ll take a closer look at what Ariel Cohen Callo – disciple of R’ Yitzhak Ginsburg – is upto, with his dangerous ‘pidyon haben’ nonsense for rehabilitating Yoshki.

(That’s the bit that is really disturbing me about all this, but we’ll set all that out in the next post, BH.)

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So, where is Jesus mentioned in authentic Jewish sources?

Let’s start with Sanhedrin 43a.

Except….If you are reading most versions of the Gemara, including the Artscroll Schottenstein Daf Yomi edition that nearly every English-speaker users to learn Gemara….you won’t find the information I’m going to bring below, because it’s been censored out of the Talmud.

This section of Sanhedrin is discussing the legal procedures that have to be followed before a capital punishment case, where the Sanhedrin would execute someone by the four methods of stoning, beheading, strangling or burning. I highly recommend you go and read it, because it clearly shows that unlike today’s ‘kangaroo courts’ and ‘kangaroo beit dins’, the Tannaim of the Gemara followed some very strict halachic procedures, when trying cases.

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Let’s bring some of what the Mishna says in Sanhedrin 43a, for context, then we’ll add in the part that was censored out, that relates specifically to Yoshki.

The Mishnah resumes its account of the procedure that preceded the execution:

If they found a reason to acquit him, they would acquit him; but if not, he goes out to be stoned. A proclamation would be called out before him, worded in the following way: “So-and-so the son of So-and-so is being taken out to be stoned, for he has transgressed such-and-such a prohibition, and So-and-so are his witnesses. Whoever knows any grounds for his acquittal, let him come forward and present them.

This would usually occur just before the execution, when everyone was gathered together to watch the excitement (some things never change…)

But then the Gemara starts mentioning a mysterious case involving an ‘anonymous’ unspecified someone where things were done differently, that reads like this in the censored Artscoll edition:

The Gemara questions:

Is it only ‘before him’, as the condemned walks to his execution, that such a proclamation is called out, and not some days in advance of this?

No further discussion of this matter is recorded in the Gemara. [See footnote 37].

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Except, that’s not true.

Footnote 37 in Artscroll says this:

The Vilna edition of the Talmud is missing the text that follows this question; for a full rendition of the missing text, see Chesronos HaShas.

Chesronos HaShas is all the different bits of the Talmud that was taken out by xtian censors, and the people who were working for them like Jonathan Eybshutz (as covered HERE).

It’s very hard to use (at least for me…), but we have it.

And this is a photocopy of the ‘censored’ passage:

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Here’s the Wikipedia description of going on in English – but there are also deliberate distortions in the translation here:

As a sorcerer with disciples

Sanhedrin 43a relates the trial and execution of Jesus and his five disciples. 

Here, Jesus is a sorcerer who has enticed other Jews to apostasy. A herald is sent to call for witnesses in his favour for forty days before his execution. No one comes forth and in the end he is stoned and hanged on the Eve of Passover. His five disciples, named Matai, Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah are then tried. Word play is made on each of their names, and they are executed. It is mentioned that leniency could not be applied because of Jesus’ influence with the royal government (malkhut).

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Dafka, it was the opposite!

It was dafka BECAUSE of Jesus’ influence with the ruling government that a herald was sent out a full 40 days before his execution, as opposed to just being sent out the day of his execution, like they did for everyone else.

The Sages were so concerned about Jesus’ cosy contacts with the government / king being such a problem for them, if they tried to try him for his crimes, they gave him a full 40 days to bring witnesses that could ‘acquit’ him.

You see, how everything is always twisted around by these xtians and the Yoshki whitewashers in our own communities?

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Who was the king in Israel, at the time all this was going on with the real, historical Jesus?

One of my readers summed it up nicely, so I’m going to use his words, then bring the sources that back up his statements.

[The original] Yeshu lived in the time of Shimon ben Shetach, who had Yoshke killed for being a false moshiach and utilizing the Shem haMeforesh.

Basically, the tract Toldot Yeshu is correct. That is the real, historical Jesus and that is all about what he did.

Then his followers, called ‘minim’ in the Gemora started to viciously lash back at the Perushim, the Sages, and later began the Hebrew/Christian cult we know of from history.

They were the face of Christianity until:

a) Paul was sent on his mission by the chachamim to get Christianity derailed from just being an offshoot of Judaism and

b) Until the Roman nobility under Arrius Piso decided to use the story to write the New Testament and make Roman Catholicism the usurper of the Hebrew/Christian Yoshke cult and turn it into the Church of Rome under Constantine.

====

We’ll get to the stuff about Paul and Peter another time. Maybe.

In the meantime, let’s first take a look at Shimon ben Shetach, (139 BCE – 38 BCE). He was the ‘av beit din’ zug, or ‘pair’ with the nasi Yehuda Ibn Tabbai.

You find them in Pirkey Avot in Chapter 1, Mishnah 8.

First, let’s understand a bit more about what these zugot were, and their links to the Sanhedrin. The following comes from HERE:

[Shimon ben Shetach] inherited the power of the Grand Assembly Sanhedrin (Sanhedrin) — a council consisting of 71 elders. There were two sages heading up the Sanhedrin: the Nasi (chairman) and his deputy, av Beit Din (chief Justice). These two leaders were called zug (couple).

The Zugot period was marked by a struggle between Hellenists (Jews who adopted Greek culture) and those who remained faithful to the laws of the Torah — a struggle that became acute as a civil war.

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Shimon ben Shetach and Yehuda Ibn Tabbai were preceded by the ‘zug’ of Yehoshua ben Perachya and Nitai HaArbeli.

Yehoshua ben Perachya is known as the ‘rebbe’ of Jesus, who was one of his students who went astray. More on that in a moment.

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Shimon ben Shetach’s sister, Salome / ShlomTzion, was married to the hellenistic Hashmonean King of that time period, called Alexander Yannai.

And he really didn’t like the Sages, and their ‘old-fashioned’ Torah and halachot.

If you look in Sanhedrin 19b, it recounts how one of King Yannai’s slaves killed someone, and Shimon ben Shetach summoned the King to appear before the Beit Din.

Shimon ben Shetach was the only rabbi in the Great Sanhedrin who wasn’t scared to sit in judgment on King Yannai – but things didn’t end well. In the Talmud, it says that Shimon ben Shetach basically cursed his colleagues for being cowards, and then:

Immediately the angel Gavriel came, knocked them to the ground, and they died.

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You can find the Wikipedia page for ‘Alexander Yannai’ HERE.

Snippet:

Alexander Jannaeus was the third son of John Hyrcanus by his second wife.

When Aristobulus I… died after a reign of one year…Alexander, as the oldest living brother, had the right not only to the throne, but also to Salome, the widow of his deceased brother, who had died childless; and, although she was thirteen years older than him, he married her in accordance with the Jewish law of Levirate Marriage. 

Also this:

Like his father, Alexander also served as the high priest. This raised the ire of the religious authorities who insisted that these two offices should not be combined. According to the Talmud, Yannai was a questionable desecrated priest (rumour had it that his mother was captured in Modiin and violated) and, in the opinion of the Pharisees, was not allowed to serve in the temple.

This infuriated the king and he sided with the Sadducees who defended him. This incident led the king to turn against the Pharisees and he persecuted them until his death.

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Alexander Yannai was quite the despot.

Later on his career, he sparked a number of civil wars within Israel. One time, as the ‘Kohen HaGadol’ he was meant to be pouring the water libation in the Temple onto the altar, but he mocked the ceremony by deliberately pouring the water at his feet.

The crowd of Jews who were in the Temple for Succot got so upset with him they pelted the King with their etrogs and called him the son of a ‘captive woman’, i.e. unfit to be the Kohen HaGadol. In return, he slaughtered 6,000 of them.

That then lead to something called the ‘Judaean Civil War’, where thousands of simple Jews revolted against their corrupt, Sadducean King.

That also didn’t end well. Thousands of people died, in horrible ways:

Jannaeus… brought the surviving rebels back to Jerusalem where he had eight hundred Jews, primarily Pharisees, crucified.

Before their deaths, Alexander had the rebels’ wives and children executed before their eyes as Jannaeus ate with his concubines. 

Nice guy…

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So, Alexander Yannai was on a rampage against the Sages of the Sanhedrin, who were trying to uphold the Torah and its laws.

This snippet comes from the JewishVirtualLibrary site, HERE:

Josephus on the one hand and rabbinic sources on the other record a number of clashes between Yannai and the Pharisees (e.g., Ant., 13:372–383; Kid. 66a; Sot. 47a; Sanh. 19a).

However, according to Josephus (Ant., 13:400–404), on his death bed the king advised his wife to yield a certain amount of power to them, so that she could govern with no problems.

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Shimon ben Shetach was hidden and protected by his sister, Queen ShlomTzion.

But the other Sages, including Yehoshua ben Perachya, fled Israel to Alexandria, in Egypt, together with his student, ‘Yeshua HaNotzri’ = Jesus. Until Shimon ben Shetach sent his rebbe a note that it was safe to return.

This comes from the Zissil website HERE:

On their return trip they stopped at an inn, whose hostess treated Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachya with great respect. Yehoshua ben Perachya complemented her to his students saying how nice the innkeeper was, in reference to her hospitality and actions.

Yeshu taking the remark at face value, responded how it was not true since her eyes were round. Yehoshua ben Perachya was startled how one of his main students was not Shomer Anyim and looked at women, let alone how Yeshu could bring himself to say such a thing in public and before his teacher.

In a way, this was a sign of bigger spiritual descents that Yeshu must have gone through while in Egypt. Due to this incident, Yehoshua ben Perachya excommunicated Yeshu, using a shofar to solidify the severance.

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As time went by Yeshu descended lower and lower, gathering around him ignorant people whom he attracted through the ‘miracles’ he performed via the use of practical Kabbalah and witchcraft.

Yeshu caused many of his followers to sin and scoff at the authority of the Sages. At one point Yehoshua ben Perachya approached his former student and asked him to repent.

Yeshu refused quoting a teaching that he had heard from Yehoshua ben Prachya himself; that one who sins and causes others to sin, is no longer given the opportunity to repent.

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Two more things, then we’ll stop here for today.

  1. There is strong evidence to suggest that Sadducees = Karaites = “Jewish Christians.”

This screenshot comes from this post: Hidden links between Khazars and Karaites – highly recommended to go back and read it, before we continue the discussion about ‘whitewashing Yoshki’.

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Now I’m re-reading this (which was written from the Karaite perspective), it’s really jumping out to me that it’s saying there was a split between the zug of Shimon ben Shetach, the ABD, and ‘Ben Tabbai’ – who is the Yehudah Ben Tabbai who was the nasi.

And the students of ‘Ben Tabbai’ became the Karaites…

I think I need to see if I can find out more about Yehuda Ben Tabbai.

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And second thing to note, is that at the time Shimon ben Shetach moved against Yoshki and his disciples, there was A LOT of witchcraft and black magic going on in Eretz Yisrael.

There’s an interesting discussion on the MiYodeya site HERE, that covers quite a bit of ground re: Shimon ben Shetach’s capture and subsequent execution of a large coven of witches.

What’s particularly interesting, is that this story comes as part of Rashi’s comments to Sanhedrin 44b – immediately after we had that censored discussion of how Yoshki misled people, used witchcraft, and had tight links with the malchut  – i.e. the murderous Sadducee King Alexander Jannai.

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Here’s the full translated text, from HERE:

It once happened that an unscrupulous Jewish tax-farmer and a great scholar died on the same day and in the same place.

All the people assembled to attend the burial of the great scholar; at the same time the relatives of the tax-farmer brought his bier for burial. However, enemies attacked the cortège, so they all dropped the biers and ran for their lives. One student however stayed there guarding the body of his rabbi.

Some time later the town dignitaries returned to resume the burial of the great scholar, but the biers of the rabbi and the tax-farmer somehow got exchanged despite the vociferous protests of the student.

Thus it came about that the relatives of the tax-farmer buried the great rabbi, which greatly distressed the rabbi’s student; nor could he explain to himself what great sin had caused the one to be buried in such a shameful way and what great merit in the other had brought about his interment with such honour.

==

His rabbi appeared to him in a dream and told him not to be distressed.

“Come and let me show you how greatly I am honoured in paradise and let me also show you that man in hell with the hinges of the gates of hell turning through his ears. Once I heard people calumniating the sages and did not protest (and that is why I was punished); he once prepared a banquet in honour of a city dignitary who did not show up, and he distributed the food to the poor (and that is why he was rewarded).”

The student asked how long the poor man was doomed to suffer this grievous torment.

“Until Shim’on ben-Shataĥ dies,” was the reply, “who will then replace him!” “Why?” asked the student;

“Because there are Jewish women in Ashkelon who practice witchcraft and he does not subject them to the rigours of the law.”

The following day the student related his dream to Shim’on ben-Shataĥ.

==

The latter assembled eighty tall young men and distributed to each of them a jar with a cloak wrapped up inside (it was a rainy day).

He also told them to make sure that they were always eighty in number. “When you come inside,” he said, “one of you must raise his jar from the ground; from that moment the witches will have no further hold over you; if that does not work then we can never beat them.”

Shim’on ben-Shataĥ went into the witches’ coven and left the young men outside.

When the witches asked him who he was he replied that he was a wizard who had come to test them with his wizardry. “What tricks can you do?” they asked. “Despite the fact that it is raining today I can produce eighty young men with dry cloaks!” “Show us!” He went outside and beckoned the young men inside. They removed the cloaks from the jars, put them on, and came into the coven.

Thus they bettered the witches, took them outside and strung them all up.

==

The relatives of the witches were incensed.

Two of them came forward and perjured themselves by testifying that Shim’on ben-Shataĥ’s son had committed some crime that was punishable by death. He was condemned to death. As he was being taken out to be stoned he said, “If I am guilty of this crime may my death bring me atonement, and if I am innocent may it atone for all my other sins and the responsibility for my death will be on the shoulders of the witnesses.”

When the perjurers heard this they recanted their testimony and explained that they had only acted because of their animosity at the fate of their women-folk.

[Rashi on Sanhedrin 44b.]

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It’s no coincidence that this story also relates to Jewish tax-farmers.

There is nothing new under the sun.

We’ll stop here in this post, but BH in the next post, we’ll take a closer look at who is trying to ‘whitewash Yoshki’ today, and how this might all start to tie together with much of the other information we’ve been learning on the blog, about who is really controlling the State of Israel, and our Jewish community, from the shadows.

Until then.

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17 replies
  1. nechama
    nechama says:

    You did very good in your research on “Y”. I didn’t remember, but you noted that it was “Paul” that was sent by the Chochomim. (BTW does it say his Jewish name?)
    Interesting, I was reading about Shimon ben Shetach and his sister, Shlomis (Shulamis), a/k/a “ShlomTzion” on Shabbos. He was a great and humble warrior for authentic Torah life. You’ll find more about the Sadducees in Megillas Ta’anis (10); Ta’anis (23a). Shlomis was first married to Alexander Aristobolus, son of Yochanan Hyrcanus and grandson of Shimon, one of the five Maccabean brothers. Yochanan Hyrcanus slew the chachomim; as in the Gemora (Kiddushin 66a) says “The world was desolated until Shimon ben Shetach came and restored the Torah to its ancient place.” ben Shetach with Yehoshua ben Gamla set up a system of compulsory Torah education for the youth. Also, Yannai was 22 when he married Shlomis (37). All that I wrote came from “Her Children Return” by Mrs V Littmann, Tefutza, vol 2). Eager to read the next installment.

    Reply
  2. Daisy
    Daisy says:

    Rivka,

    I read the link you gave ( Zissil..) and the account of how Yoshke went downhill. If you ask me, I can honestly empathize with his experience: we are dealing with severe trauma. Imagine you are him, and your revered Rav decides to excommunicate you because you did something “off” in front of him. So you go, again and again, asking your Rav to forgive you for your improper behavior and lift the traumatic punishment, but the Rav refuses again and again. and when the Rav finally agrees, you somehow misinterpret his reaction, are convinced that he will never forgive you. So out of despair, you go “off the Derech” as many of our youth and adults do repeatedly. From then on Yoshke gets worse and worse…

    OK, everything is from Hashem; still, he experienced severe trauma: of course he had a negative reaction! I am not condoning the things he did later, but frankly, better communication between his teacher and himself could have resolved this issue quickly, and cut his descent short. Don’t you think Yehoshua ben Perachya also had a part to play in all of this? Maybe he could have repaired the damage before it was too late? First of all, sorry if I offended anybody by saying this, but facts are facts; so I feel sorry for him: obviously he went through something very painful. Trauma is known to have severe consequences for people for a very long time; there is so much literature and knowledge about trauma, I will be happy to share links if needed. Any wonder he went downhill from then on? Maybe a bit of empathy and deep counseling could have nipped this in the bud?!

    Reply
    • Daisy
      Daisy says:

      Thanks Rivka for posting this comment despite it being provocative, I admit. But the fact is, not even Moshe Rabbeinu was perfect; is it not possible that a Gadol makes mistakes sometimes?

      If on the other hand Yoshke was an evil soul lechatchila, then why did Yehoshua ben Perachia accept him as a close student for so long? Or if the reason he was excommunicated was because of the sorcery he was practicing, then why is this story being told, as though this one-time event was really the reason he was excommunicated? Why did Yehoshua continue to deal with him, travel with him, even bring him back to Eretz Yisrael?

      Something is rather bizarre here. Maybe you have a better insight in this whole episode, but to me it just doesn’t sound right.

      And again, let me stress, I am NOT a Yoshke “whitewasher”, I am only asking questions because the whole episode disturbs me frankly.

      Reply
      • Rivka Levy
        Rivka Levy says:

        Daisy, Yoshki was clearly on a very low level if a bit of rebuke from his Rebbe caused him to go totally off the derech, start practising black magic (which remember, usually involves killing animals and even people, especially at its ‘higher’ levels, plus all sorts of immoral practices) – and pull others away from believing in God, too, and believing in ‘him’ instead.

        People can always make teshuva. The argument you are making for Yoshki could easily also be made for Esav – and the angel of Esav is the epitome of evil, the Samech Mem himself!

        God gives chance after chance, but at a certain point, God ‘hardens the person’s own heart’ as a punishment, and teshuva is no longer possible.

        Clearly, the bigger the soul, the bigger the test, the bigger the pull to evil. But it’s kind of insulting to say that Yoshki’s test of having rebuke from his rebbe is anything like the disgusting abuse that so many in the frum community have gone through from ‘rebbes’ and ‘rabbis’ and teachers and parents and others in authority – but who have still stayed close to Hashem and His Torah.

        For sure the story is bizarre. So much is being covered up. But God didn’t stick Yoshki in a vat of boiling poo – forever – for nothing.

        Reply
        • Daisy
          Daisy says:

          Thanks for your reply, Rivka.

          But wait: you called what he went through ” a bit of rebuke”? To be excommunicated – Cherem – is no small matter. It means you are rejected everywhere you go: nobody is supposed to speak with you, you cannot be part of a minyan, nobody can employ you, it literally destroys your society! So of course a “cheremized” person will try to create a parallel group where he or she will be accepted and appreciated. It makes a lot of sense: who wants to live in isolation for the rest of their days?

          Now what he did with that group was very bad; but creating a new group is realistic, the alternative being having no friends at all, no work, … no life!

          [Our friend who was s. abused and subsequently rejected by the Kehillah – Cherem! – for acting out in a way related to his early trauma – I think I mentioned this to you – decided to join a group of bikers, he gave up kashrut, went totally off the derech after having been a really nice and appreciated member of the kehillah. After years of this, he finally decided to do teshuvah, and is doing good things again these days. So you simply never know! But Cherem can have severe consequences, believe me, it can completely destroy a person’s life.]

          And what you claim I said about Yehoshua ben Perachya is not at all that: I just claimed that the Rebbe could maybe have been a little bit more understanding with his Talmid ( after all he forgave him at the end, didn’t he? So what changed during this time?), and actually REBUKE him, yes, rebuke is fine; but he did a lot more than rebuke him, he destroyed his communal life. That’s a very heavy punishment. So the question remains: why? Maybe Yoshke really did a lot of terrible things with this sorcery, etc. But then why did he continue to keep him as a student? It makes no sense! And to put him in Cherem because he looked at the eyes of a woman? Seriously? How old was he then? A young man? Unmarried? ( He died at 33, right?) That’s an offense worthy of Cherem??? I don’t know…. it seems a bit extreme to me, but who knows…. and then he says again and again, please, forgive me, let me have a life… but no, no, no, no, no…. If that was the only wrong he did, then I find this quite a bit harsh. If on the other hand he was excommunicated BECAUSE of sorcery and having started a group of followers of that nature, then that would be perfectly acceptable and reasonable.

          So what happened, really?

          Reply
          • Rivka Levy
            Rivka Levy says:

            R Eliezer was also excommunicated – for far less! – and continued to serve Hashem totally, without doing what Yoshki did.

            Also, sexual abuse damages a person profoundly in a way that no other form of abuse does. It literally shatters the soul into pieces.

            I have met a few people who went through it as children, and I have seen close up that it’s probably the most awful thing you can do to a person, spiritually.

            So, ‘rebuke from a rebbe’ just can’t be compared to being abused in that way, however tough the rebuke, even with cherem thrown in.

            There’s a lot of lies and PR told about Yoshke – and still being told about Yoshke.

            So much of this hinges on the black magic. Sorcerers do evil things, to get their ‘miraculous powers’. It’s not just a case of someone ‘going off the derech’ because they were hurt, it’s way more the case of someone selling their soul to the devil, in order to get power and status and ‘miraculous powers’.

            It’s totally different.

    • Shimshon
      Shimshon says:

      Daisy, he was accused, tried, convicted, and finally executed by stoning. According to our mesorah. Full stop, period. You are minimizing and conflating many things.

      Reply
      • Daisy
        Daisy says:

        OK, fine Shimshon; good summary.

        But then I have a question: our mesorah states that he was stoned; they claimed he was crucified: what’s this mix-up: where did the crucifixion story come from? They really believe it, they bow to that piece of wood all the time! Such a saga, who was the author if it is not the real story?

        Reply
  3. nechama
    nechama says:

    I’m listening to Rabbi Kessin (on my blog), that Haish recommended above, and he is davka discussing that at the destruction of the first Temple, bc of the sins of the Jews, many of the major religions came into existence. The SM was able to siphon off that from the Jews and gave it to the goyim; hence those religions. So we see that bc of our sins, previous energies leave us and go elsewhere. This is why there is so much horrible trouble in our days, from the same process. It seems, unfortunately, we Jews are not able to extricate ourselves from sin that causes so much damage; only HKB”H can cleanse us. Rabbi Kessin is explaining the relationship betw Jews and the satan. Sadly.

    Reply
  4. Daisy Stern
    Daisy Stern says:

    OK, Rivka, I am not arguing about that: of course black magic is awful. But then why on earth would Rav Yehoshua ben Perachya have decided to not only keep that student immersed in black magic from Mitzrayim, but even bring him back to Eretz Yisrael? He must have known about the rotten student’s tendencies and new interest: then how come he didn’t simply reject him in Mitzrayim, and left him there? Why bring him back, and then use a small incident for such severe punishment: does that make any sense to you? Bizarre to the max. It’s not like he started his black magic in Eretz Yisrael: he was already immersed in it in Egypt, isn’t that part of the story being told? So why bring this scourge back to Eretz Yisrael? Or did Yoshke only discover it after being Cheremized? The whole thing is totally screwed up: after all, the seeds of evil were already visible, so why didn’t Rav Yehoshua simply cut it short before trouble started? Through his action he only made things worse. OK, so maybe it was an oversight, still, it seems to me like mismanagement on his part, if things really happened the way the story is told, if Yoshke brought back black magic from Mitzrayim, and was then cheremized, that was the perfect recipe for trouble! Not his fault, I guess he was no prophet; but he must have known about the stuff Yoshke was involved in… So??? Or maybe it was simply Hashem’s will? Then why????

    Reply
  5. Efraim
    Efraim says:

    The effort to whitewash J. is the same as to whitewash ס”ם, who is the angel of Esav , the prince of Romi, the god of Christianity. Whitewash is impossible. Birur ? Maybe. But this avodah is given only to a tsadik gamur, is very dangerous task and those who tried by themselves all failed ,caused kilkul and not tikkun, and the vast majority of them shallowed from the sitra . How can we judged them ? From the results only. Yaakov avinu denied to join with Esav … . A big temptation. We was wrong ? Some say he was wrong but they are wrong. Finally only the head of Esav was collected with his forefathers. Hashem rules His creation all nations and history and brings divisions in the klipot . Babel, the city and the tower the building of the sitra. STOP build with them. This building finally will be utter destroyed from the אבן thrown from Above upon its toes, (not on its head). To build in the kedushah (a task GIVEN to everyone of us) requires exodus- separation first from any klipah.

    Reply
  6. Hava
    Hava says:

    One of the factors we haven’t discussed yet, because everyone knows something about it, is how much harm was done, not only at the time, but how long it persisted.

    Harm still persists when it comes to Xianity. Many have been harmed, not only through the Sabbatean-Frankist-Freemason framework, but outside it as well. Christianity will stop at nothing to bring people, especially Jews, to leave their beliefs behind, no matter how well-founded, for the brand that stars Yoshke.

    Around the time of the release of that Mel Gibson movie (2004) I remember hearing that some 20,000 (or more?) Jews perished at the hands of the Romans after the death of Yoshke, whether believers in him or not.

    I wasn’t paying too much attention due to treatment of a serious disease at the time; and a search “how many Jews died because Jesus was crucified” didn’t provide an answer at all to this question. So, I can neither confirm nor deny.

    But in any case, there were consequences to the People in general even shortly after the event, and they have not stopped ever since, whether because Xians blame Jews for their leader’s death or because Jews who believe in him and die that way, unrepentant, are lost to us, no matter what the “messianics” say.

    Bottom line: They all hang on Yoshke’s head.

    Reply
    • Jeremy M
      Jeremy M says:

      This — continuing harm — is what bothers me as well. I had heard about Shabtai Tzvi that someone agreed to intercede for him, on the condition that he stop trying to pull people into the dark…I have a (Torah-following) friend who says Yoshki continues to come to him in dreams and bother him…

      Reply
      • Rivka Levy
        Rivka Levy says:

        It’s interesting, how many of these false prophets / false messiahs have had permission from Heaven to fool people by coming to them in dreams and visions, etc.

        I think that’s part of why this is just such a hard test, and such a difficult birur.

        And why Rabbenu stressed that you can come up with any chiddush that you want – as long as it doesn’t go against even a jot in the Shulchan Aruch.

        Reply

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