Let’s continue trying to thresh out what is really going on here.
My correspondent, M., sent me a dozen more emails and asked me to put his arguments up here. I have no problem doing that – minus most of the personal insults he’s freely peppering his discourse with – because trying to clarify what God really wants from us is what this is really all about.
And while we’re on that subject, let’s also point out that disagreeing strongly with someone else, with their view, their path, doesn’t mean we then have to put the other person in the ‘enemy’ camp.
I can disagree with you – strongly! – and still respect you as a person, and still see that you are still full of good, and do a lot of good, and have a lot of good things to say.
OK, now let’s dive back in to M.’s arguments, in italics. My responses will be underneath, in regular font.
So therefore because ur not ok with wounded and dead arabs who refuse to leave we have to continue to suffer yidden maimed and murdered for the rest of human history until Moshiach comes. You fulfill the maxim of the gemora…
“Those who are merciful to the cruel will in the end become cruel to the merciful…”
There’s a few assumptions that need clearing up here.
The POINT is that using violence to try to get Arab residents to leave Eretz Yisrael against their will wouldn’t work to solve the problem on a number of levels, for a number of reasons.
Let’s walk through what would really happen, if someone was stupid enough to try this approach.
> There would be an all-out war in Eretz Yisrael, because the Arabs wouldn’t just sit there quietly while their neighbors in Jaffa or Lod were moved out at gun point.
There would be rockets landing in Israel from Gaza, from Lebanon, from Syria, maybe even the Iranians would join in with their fabled nuke…
So tachlis, this approach would end up with way more Jews wounded and dead – and still wouldn’t solve the problem.
And there’s another issue here, which is that countries like the USA, the UK and the EU are really behind all the Arab violence in Israel.
The terrorists are just puppets on a string.
Hamas was literally created by the State of Israel.
So, who is the real ‘enemy’ here?
Rav Nachman says Moshiach will bring peace without having to fire a single shot huh…?
Well someone infinitely greater than him, the Rambam wrote in Hilchut Melachim Perek 11… that one of the qualifications of Moshiach ben David as to how he will prove that he’s the real deal… the genuine article is by fighting the wars necessary to liberate the land and people of israel… bring back all of the exiled yidden from the four corners of the earth and if it isn’t already built before his arrival then he will build the third and final bayit…
Rav Nachman didn’t know this Rambam…?
Of course Rebbe Nachman knew this Rambam.
The point is, that he’s teaching that Moshiach ben David will do all this without firing a shot.
Let’s go back to Moshe Rabbenu, and how the Jews left Egypt and overcome Pharoah and his army.
The whole thing was miraculous, from start to finish. Millions of ‘bad’ people died in Egypt (including many of the Jews themselves, who didn’t want to leave galut and refused to believe that Moshe Rabbenu was the ticket out of Egypt…)
Pharoah’s army was totally wiped out at the Reed Sea.
And Moshe Rabbenu didn’t fire a shot.
All this was accomplished with prayer and the Jewish people’s sincere teshuva and emuna in Hashem, AND His prophet Moshe.
We’re taught that the redemption from Egypt is the ‘blueprint’ for the final redemption, too. What Rebbe Nachman is describing is a repeat of what occurred with Moshe Rabbenu, nothing more, and nothing less.
Why is that so hard to accept?
So let me get this straight… according to you when Hashem sent Shmuel Hanavi to tell Shaul HaMelech to go to war and wipe out Amalek Shaul was correct in his not wanting to do so as described in the Medrashim surrounding the incident and Hashem was wrong to order it because violence and vengeance is for Hashem’s purview and only in His domain to do by Himself because when human beings get involved in waging war it is dirty and messy and in the human scope of things solely the province of Esav HaRasha… the level of sheer absurdity here is beyond all measurement and is truly ludicrous…
This argument is a straw man.
I’ve said repeatedly that when a prophet ordained by God – like Moshe Rabbenu, like Shmuel HaNavi – says that God wants certain people killed, then it’s obviously what you do, because doing what God wants is a mitzvah.
But we have no ‘prophets ordained by God’ to tell us this stuff today.
The time of prophecy ended 2,000 years ago.
And as I keep stressing here, we have no idea who the ‘real enemy’ is, as the Arabs are just the stick in the hands of the real power behind the throne.
As more and more people wake up to understand that the ‘real enemy’ are the elites above us, who keep orchestrating and planning all these wars, and fuelling all this hatred between ordinary people, it makes the question of waging war between ordinary people moot. And when the ‘divide and conquer’ strategy fails, that’s when we can really start to focus on where all this evil is actually coming from, and deal with the problem at its source.
Your arguments ring hollow and are so shallow and so untenable that they cannot even begin to approach an answer to these and the other challenges I have put up to u which so far u refuse to air… i urge u to post my responses so far in order to facilitate the debate back and forth… u didn’t include any of my arguments based on t’nach… nor does your logic explain why David fought so many wars… nor does it indicate what the Chashmanoiim should have done other than resort to violence and revolution to throw off their evil oppressors’ yoke and win back their freedom to observe mitzvot… nor do u even come close to explaining how the purim story would have concluded had Mordechai and Esther blew kisses at Haman and his Amalaki minions instead of going out and killing them all…
OK, let’s go through the examples my correspondent gave of where war is mentioned in the Torah and Tanach.
- Avraham fighting the Kings to free his nephew Lot (see Lech Lecha 14 1-25).
- Hashem’s command to destroy the 7 Caananite nations, when the Jews were about to conquer Eretz Yisrael
- Shmuel HaNavi’s command to Shaul to destroy the nation of Amalek.
- King David fighting his wars against the Philistines.
- The Chashmonaim fighting against the Greeks (which included huge amounts of Hellenised Jews.)
- The Purim story.
The first thing to say, again, is that whenever God tells you to do something, or His anointed prophet tells you to do something, you do it.
No-one is arguing with that, at all. But that’s not the situation that we find ourselves in, in 2022. We have no ‘prophets’ to tell us what to do, and we have a military and police force that is 100% controlled by reshaim.
Also, if you look at all these ‘wars’ we find they were all miraculous.
It wasn’t the ‘guns’ that won the war, it was the prayers and the miracles.
We saw the same thing here in Eretz Yisrael, during the Six Day War and also the Yom Kippur War – but the miracles took a while to kick in, in 1973, and almost 3,000 Israelis died as a result, when the nation was just ‘relying on its guns’.
And there is a huge difference morally between a war of defense, a defensive action where you are protecting yourself from other people’s violence and aggression, and an offensive action to go out and kill people stam.
And lastly for now in this go round… is the Ohr HaChayim HaKodesh who wrote about Shimon’s and Levi’s response to Yakov’s objection to their deed in wiping out Ir Shechem for practical considerations not moral ones… Yakov never said they committed an unwarranted atrocity… he just said I am few in number and now you have put us all in danger vis a vis the Cnaani nations surrounding us…
They said back… “hak’zonah naseh achoteinu…” “should we have then allowed them to turn our sister into a harlot.. ?”
The medresh says here they said… “the waters were murky (or muddy) and we cleared them up…”
Meaning the Ohr HaChayim says (paraphrase) (look it up)… “Yakov was incorrect… had the two brothers not done what they did to punish them for what they had done to dina it would have been open season on B’nai Yisroel and everywhere they would have gone all of them would have been easy pickings had they not put an end to the notion that they were weak and intimidated by the sheer force and numbers of these goyim… their courageous act put the fear of G-d in them and thus overawed they left the family alone and gave them an extremely wide birth…”
The discussion we are having now is still motivated 100% by practical considerations.
Practically, the idea that the Jewish nation can just shoot our way out of our problems, or ‘forcibly remove’ Arabs from Eretz Yisrael at gun point, is a non-starter – for so many different reasons!
It doesn’t work in the real world.
It never worked in the real world.
THAT is the point.
Let’s say you try and do that now, what happens next?
Thousands of rockets from Gaza, rockets from Lebanon and Syria, and a nuke from Iran lands on your doorstep….
And the West will just sit there egging it all on, because the Jews acted in a way that shows ‘they deserved it’…. Talk about another holocaust.
PRACTICALLY, Rav Kahane’s ideas for how you solve Eretz Yisrael’s problems don’t work.
So clearly, there has to be another way of solving those problems.
As Rav Meir always said… “i don’t want love from the goyim… I want respect and fear if possible…” also… “I much prefer a strong and virile Israel that is strong and hated by the entire world than an Auschwitz which is loved and memorialized and cried over…” to wit I can only say amen… truth.out…
Really, who cares what Rav Meir ‘wants’?
The question – the only question – is what does God want?
By God, we aren’t stuck in limited paradigms where military violence is the only solution to our problems.
God has so many ways of resolving our issues…. Millions and millions of different ways of resolving our issues in the best possible way.
Once the Jewish people really comes back to Hashem, really comes back to having yirat shemayim, really comes back to having emuna, and eradicates the sinat chinam that has been plaguing us for 2,000 years, already, then God will show us what those solutions really are.
It’s possible that at that point, a prophet will arise and tell us to go to war in the traditional sense. But it’s more likely, judging by our previous experience, that God will arrange for our enemies to disappear miraculously.
Maybe, He’ll take a few hundred men with shofars and tell them to walk seven times around the UN building, or the Knesset, until the whole thing falls down by itself.
Maybe, He’ll arrange for millions of our enemies to be supernaturally-electrocuted in their sleep, as happened to Sanncherib’s army when it was besieging Jerusalem at the time of King Hezekiah.
The last thing I wanted to mention here, is that our Temple got destroyed at the hands of a bunch of people who were making exactly the same arguments we are hearing here.
Here’s what my correspondent came back with:
Doesn’t matter that prophecy ended a long time ago… Rav Meir teaches we have the Torah commandments of war and vengeance to follow… these are mitzvot meaning Divine orders and commandments… precise halachot no different than those of shabbos and kashrus…
Rav Meir also taught that we have the precedent of all those events by our holy ancestors to follow their lead as he says their deeds serve and function as “a light unto our feet…”
So we don’t have to have prophets to know what to do… we already have been shown the true Torah path…
Here’s my correspondent’s last word (for now….)
When the Rambam writes of milchemet mitzvah he lists three of them which comprise the mitzvah…
Only the war against Amalek requires prior prophetic prompting and impetus the other two do not… the one to clear out the 7 Canaani nations and the other one to rally to defend Eretz Yisroel from an invading army… both of which do not need prophecy as they are already commanded and are absolutely and irrefutably logical and eminently common sense self defense actions….
Just substitute the present Arab nation for the canaanim the zayin amamim… as both the Ramban and the Abarbanel teach and instruct…
You’re just going to ‘substitute’ the Palestinians for the Seven Canaanite nations on your own say-so, and go ahead and commit a genocide on that basis?
In fact the Ramban adds a fourth milchemet mitzvah to the Rambam’s list… and it is a third one that requires no further nevuah due to its precedent setting establishment in Parshat Mattot… wars of vengeance as Hashem commanded Moshe to carry out against the Midyanim for what they caused their daughters to do to us at Shitim by the averah of Ba’al Peor…
The Ramban says this is yet another category of milchemet mitzvah for all time on the books to render back to the goyim who attack us with mida k’neged mida action brought down upon them by our military… the avenging army of every chillul Hashem wrought against our honor and ergo axiomatically simultaneously wrought against the glory and kavod of Hashem whom we rep upon earth… read it and weep because this is true authentic torah judaism and nothing else is…
Rav Nachman and Rav Berland teach hippiekeit mores not Torah law.
Tachlis, Rebbe Nachman’s teachings have helped hundreds of thousands of Jews to develop a real relationship with Hashem, and to start having more emuna and humility.
Tachlis, Rav Berland’s teachings have also helped thousands and thousands of Jews – including yours truly – to recognise that there is no excuse for bad middot like arrogance, hatred, vengeance and anger.
Tachlis, that ‘hippiekeit’ got 25,000 people coming together in person to pray for the welfare of Am Yisrael a few days ago, at the Mearat HaMachpelah.
And it will get hopefully tens of thousands of people to Uman for Rosh Hashana, to ‘sweeten the judgements’ hanging over our nation there, for the coming year 5783.
These are real, concrete achievements (and let’s be clear, I’m totally understating the true, positive impact of Rabbenu and Rav Berland on the Jewish world today.)
As I said above, we can disagree with each other, but still respect each other.
Or at least, that’s the path I’m trying to follow.
That’s the path of achdut, that’s the path of continuing to see the good points in people who have some funny ideas we might not agree with, or even violently disagree with.
If that’s ‘hippiekeit’, then so be it.
That hippiekeit is giving me a good relationship with my husband and kids, it’s encouraging me to work on overcoming my bad middot, it’s helping me to tolerate differences of opinion, and its motivating me to pray sincerely for God to remove the evil from the world, because I see that guns is not the answer.
And if that’s all it ever does… dayenu.
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