Hippies

Let’s continue trying to thresh out what is really going on here.

My correspondent, M., sent me a dozen more emails and asked me to put his arguments up here. I have no problem doing that – minus most of the personal insults he’s freely peppering his discourse with – because trying to clarify what God really wants from us is what this is really all about.

And while we’re on that subject, let’s also point out that disagreeing strongly with someone else, with their view, their path, doesn’t mean we then have to put the other person in the ‘enemy’ camp.

I can disagree with you – strongly! – and still respect you as a person, and still see that you are still full of good, and do a lot of good, and have a lot of good things to say.

OK, now let’s dive back in to M.’s arguments, in italics. My responses will be underneath, in regular font.

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So therefore because ur not ok with wounded and dead arabs who refuse to leave we have to continue to suffer yidden maimed and murdered for the rest of human history until Moshiach comes. You fulfill the maxim of the gemora…

“Those who are merciful to the cruel will in the end become cruel to the merciful…”

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There’s a few assumptions that need clearing up here.

The POINT is that using violence to try to get Arab residents to leave Eretz Yisrael against their will wouldn’t work to solve the problem on a number of levels, for a number of reasons.

Let’s walk through what would really happen, if someone was stupid enough to try this approach.

> There would be an  all-out war in Eretz Yisrael, because the Arabs wouldn’t just sit there quietly while their neighbors in Jaffa or Lod were moved out at gun point. 

There would be rockets landing in Israel from Gaza, from Lebanon, from Syria, maybe even the Iranians would join in with their fabled nuke…

So tachlis, this approach would end up with way more Jews wounded and dead – and still wouldn’t solve the problem.

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And there’s another issue here, which is that countries like the USA, the UK and the EU are really behind all the Arab violence in Israel.

The terrorists are just puppets on a string.

Hamas was literally created by the State of Israel.

So, who is the real ‘enemy’ here?

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Rav Nachman says Moshiach will bring peace without having to fire a single shot huh…?

Well someone infinitely greater than him, the Rambam wrote in Hilchut Melachim Perek 11… that one of the qualifications of Moshiach ben David as to how he will prove that he’s the real deal… the genuine article is by fighting the wars necessary to liberate the land and people of israel… bring back all of the exiled yidden from the four corners of the earth and if it isn’t already built before his arrival then he will build the third and final bayit…

Rav Nachman didn’t know this Rambam…?

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Of course Rebbe Nachman knew this Rambam.

The point is, that he’s teaching that Moshiach ben David will do all this without firing a shot.

Let’s go back to Moshe Rabbenu, and how the Jews left Egypt and overcome Pharoah and his army.

The whole thing was miraculous, from start to finish. Millions of ‘bad’ people died in Egypt (including many of the Jews themselves, who didn’t want to leave galut and refused to believe that Moshe Rabbenu was the ticket out of Egypt…)

Pharoah’s army was totally wiped out at the Reed Sea.

And Moshe Rabbenu didn’t fire a shot.

All this was accomplished with prayer and the Jewish people’s sincere teshuva and emuna in Hashem, AND His prophet Moshe.

We’re taught that the redemption from Egypt is the ‘blueprint’ for the final redemption, too. What Rebbe Nachman is describing is a repeat of what occurred with Moshe Rabbenu, nothing more, and nothing less.

Why is that so hard to accept?

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So let me get this straight… according to you when Hashem sent Shmuel Hanavi to tell Shaul HaMelech to go to war and wipe out Amalek Shaul was correct in his not wanting to do so as described in the Medrashim surrounding the incident and Hashem was wrong to order it because violence and vengeance is for Hashem’s purview and only in His domain to do by Himself because when human beings get involved in waging war it is dirty and messy and in the human scope of things solely the province of Esav HaRasha… the level of sheer absurdity here is beyond all measurement and is truly ludicrous…

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This argument is a straw man.

I’ve said repeatedly that when a prophet ordained by God – like Moshe Rabbenu, like Shmuel HaNavi – says that God wants certain people killed, then it’s obviously what you do, because doing what God wants is a mitzvah.

But we have no ‘prophets ordained by God’ to tell us this stuff today.

The time of prophecy ended 2,000 years ago.

And as I keep stressing here, we have no idea who the ‘real enemy’ is, as the Arabs are just the stick in the hands of the real power behind the throne.

As more and more people wake up to understand that the ‘real enemy’ are the elites above us, who keep orchestrating and planning all these wars, and fuelling all this hatred between ordinary people, it makes the question of waging war between ordinary people moot. And when the ‘divide and conquer’ strategy fails, that’s when we can really start to focus on where all this evil is actually coming from, and deal with the problem at its source.

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Your arguments ring hollow and are so shallow and so untenable that they cannot even begin to approach an answer to these and the other challenges I have put up to u which so far u refuse to air… i urge u to post my responses so far in order to facilitate the debate back and forth… u didn’t include any of my arguments based on t’nach… nor does your logic explain why David fought so many wars… nor does it indicate what the Chashmanoiim should have done other than resort to violence and revolution to throw off their evil oppressors’ yoke and win back their freedom to observe mitzvot… nor do u even come close to explaining how the purim story would have concluded had Mordechai and Esther blew kisses at Haman and his Amalaki minions instead of going out and killing them all…

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OK, let’s go through the examples my correspondent gave of where war is mentioned in the Torah and Tanach.

  1. Avraham fighting the Kings to free his nephew Lot (see Lech Lecha 14 1-25).
  2. Hashem’s command to destroy the 7 Caananite nations, when the Jews were about to conquer Eretz Yisrael
  3. Shmuel HaNavi’s command to Shaul to destroy the nation of Amalek.
  4. King David fighting his wars against the Philistines.
  5. The Chashmonaim fighting against the Greeks (which included huge amounts of Hellenised Jews.)
  6. The Purim story.

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The first thing to say, again, is that whenever God tells you to do something, or His anointed prophet tells you to do something, you do it.

No-one is arguing with that, at all. But that’s not the situation that we find ourselves in, in 2022. We have no ‘prophets’ to tell us what to do, and we have a military and police force that is 100% controlled by reshaim.

Also, if you look at all these ‘wars’ we find they were all miraculous.

It wasn’t the ‘guns’ that won the war, it was the prayers and the miracles.

We saw the same thing here in Eretz Yisrael, during the Six Day War and also the Yom Kippur War – but the miracles took a while to kick in, in 1973, and almost 3,000 Israelis died as a result, when the nation was just ‘relying on its guns’.

And there is a huge difference morally between a war of defense, a defensive action where you are protecting yourself from other people’s violence and aggression, and an offensive action to go out and kill people stam.

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And lastly for now in this go round… is the Ohr HaChayim HaKodesh who wrote about Shimon’s and Levi’s response to Yakov’s objection to their deed in wiping out Ir Shechem for practical considerations not moral ones… Yakov never said they committed an unwarranted atrocity… he just said I am few in number and now you have put us all in danger vis a vis the Cnaani nations surrounding us…

They said back… “hak’zonah naseh achoteinu…” “should we have then allowed them to turn our sister into a harlot.. ?”

The medresh says here they said… “the waters were murky (or muddy) and we cleared them up…”

Meaning the Ohr HaChayim says (paraphrase) (look it up)… “Yakov was incorrect… had the two brothers not done what they did to punish them for what they had done to dina it would have been open season on B’nai Yisroel and everywhere they would have gone all of them would have been easy pickings had they not put an end to the notion that they were weak and intimidated by the sheer force and numbers of these goyim… their courageous act put the fear of G-d in them and thus overawed they left the family alone and gave them an extremely wide birth…”

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The discussion we are having now is still motivated 100% by practical considerations.

Practically, the idea that the Jewish nation can just shoot our way out of our problems, or ‘forcibly remove’ Arabs from Eretz Yisrael at gun point, is a non-starter – for so many different reasons!

It doesn’t work in the real world.

It never worked in the real world.

THAT is the point.

Let’s say you try and do that now, what happens next?

Thousands of rockets from Gaza, rockets from Lebanon and Syria, and a nuke from Iran lands on your doorstep….

And the West will just sit there egging it all on, because the Jews acted in a way that shows ‘they deserved it’…. Talk about another holocaust.

PRACTICALLY, Rav Kahane’s ideas for how you solve Eretz Yisrael’s problems don’t work.

So clearly, there has to be another way of solving those problems.

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As Rav Meir always said… “i don’t want love from the goyim… I want respect and fear if possible…” also… “I much prefer a strong and virile Israel that is strong and hated by the entire world than an Auschwitz which is loved and memorialized and cried over…” to wit I can only say amen… truth.out…

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Really, who cares what Rav Meir ‘wants’?

The question – the only question – is what does God want?

By God, we aren’t stuck in limited paradigms where military violence is the only solution to our problems.

God has so many ways of resolving our issues…. Millions and millions of different ways of resolving our issues in the best possible way.

Once the Jewish people really comes back to Hashem, really comes back to having yirat shemayim, really comes back to having emuna, and eradicates the sinat chinam that has been plaguing us for 2,000 years, already, then God will show us what those solutions really are.

It’s possible that at that point, a prophet will arise and tell us to go to war in the traditional sense. But it’s more likely, judging by our previous experience, that God will arrange for our enemies to disappear miraculously.

Maybe, He’ll take a few hundred men with shofars and tell them to walk seven times around the UN building, or the Knesset, until the whole thing falls down by itself.

Maybe, He’ll arrange for millions of our enemies to be supernaturally-electrocuted in their sleep, as happened to Sanncherib’s army when it was besieging Jerusalem at the time of King Hezekiah.

Who knows?

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The last thing I wanted to mention here, is that our Temple got destroyed at the hands of a bunch of people who were making exactly the same arguments we are hearing here.

Here’s what my correspondent came back with:

Doesn’t matter that prophecy ended a long time ago… Rav Meir teaches we have the Torah commandments of war and vengeance to follow… these are mitzvot meaning Divine orders and commandments… precise halachot no different than those of shabbos and kashrus…

Rav Meir also taught that we have the precedent of all those events by our holy ancestors to follow their lead as he says their deeds serve and function as “a light unto our feet…”

So we don’t have to have prophets to know what to do… we already have been shown the true Torah path…

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Really?

Here’s my correspondent’s last word (for now….)

When the Rambam writes of milchemet mitzvah he lists three of them which comprise the mitzvah…

Only the war against Amalek requires prior prophetic prompting and impetus the other two do not… the one to clear out the 7 Canaani nations and the other one to rally to defend Eretz Yisroel from an invading army… both of which do not need prophecy as they are already commanded and are absolutely and irrefutably logical and eminently common sense self defense actions…. 

Just substitute the present Arab nation for the canaanim the zayin amamim… as both the Ramban and the Abarbanel teach and instruct…

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Really?

You’re just going to ‘substitute’ the Palestinians for the Seven Canaanite nations on your own say-so, and go ahead and commit a genocide on that basis?

Really?

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In fact the Ramban adds a fourth milchemet mitzvah to the Rambam’s list… and it is a third one that requires no further nevuah due to its precedent setting establishment in Parshat Mattot… wars of vengeance as Hashem commanded Moshe to carry out against the Midyanim for what they caused their daughters to do to us at Shitim by the averah of Ba’al Peor…

The Ramban says this is yet another category of milchemet mitzvah for all time on the books to render back to the goyim who attack us with mida k’neged mida action brought down upon them by our military… the avenging army of every chillul Hashem wrought against our honor and ergo axiomatically simultaneously wrought against the glory and kavod of Hashem whom we rep upon earth… read it and weep because this is true authentic torah judaism and nothing else is…

Rav Nachman and Rav Berland teach hippiekeit mores not Torah law.

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Tachlis, Rebbe Nachman’s teachings have helped hundreds of thousands of Jews to develop a real relationship with Hashem, and to start having more emuna and humility.

Tachlis, Rav Berland’s teachings have also helped thousands and thousands of Jews – including yours truly – to recognise that there is no excuse for bad middot like arrogance, hatred, vengeance and anger.

Tachlis, that ‘hippiekeit’ got 25,000 people coming together in person to pray for the welfare of Am Yisrael a few days ago, at the Mearat HaMachpelah.

And it will get hopefully tens of thousands of people to Uman for Rosh Hashana, to ‘sweeten the judgements’ hanging over our nation there, for the coming year 5783.

These are real, concrete achievements (and let’s be clear, I’m totally understating the true, positive impact of Rabbenu and Rav Berland on the Jewish world today.)

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As I said above, we can disagree with each other, but still respect each other.

Or at least, that’s the path I’m trying to follow.

That’s the path of achdut, that’s the path of continuing to see the good points in people who have some funny ideas we might not agree with, or even violently disagree with.

If that’s ‘hippiekeit’, then so be it.

That hippiekeit is giving me a good relationship with my husband and kids, it’s encouraging me to work on overcoming my bad middot, it’s helping me to tolerate differences of opinion, and its motivating me to pray sincerely for God to remove the evil from the world, because I see that guns is not the answer.

And if that’s all it ever does… dayenu.

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23 replies
  1. Shimshon
    Shimshon says:

    M is retarded. Yirmiyahu told the king of his day to refrain from scheming and violence and to accept the Divine decree, and what would happen if he didn’t. He didn’t listen to a confirmed prophet, and everything predicted came to pass. M would follow in the footsteps of that king. Today is more like that situation than the ones M likes to cite to justify his idiocy. We are not in any position to do what he urges.

    Purim itself is not a good example. Until the turnabout, we were the ones to be destroyed. Only after the tables were turned were we in a position to do something. Which we had to, because they meant to destroy us. But even still, it was only done with the permission of the goyim, and obviously with Hashem acting behind the scenes to bring out that outcome.

    There is a time to fight, and this is not one of them.

    Why doesn’t M do what he agitates for and act on his own accord? It does work sometimes. Like Pinchas in the midbar. Or the Chashmonayim. One supremely righteous man at the appropriate time can experience siyata d’shmaya and succeed. Go ahead, M. Instead of throwing insults around, rise up and do the deed yourself. Why are you arguing with a woman? Do you want her to fight for you?

    Reply
    • Daisy
      Daisy says:

      I know M: he is not an retard, nor even an idiot at all: in fact, he is a very intelligent man and a Talmid Chochem too, who used to give shiurim to groups a lot – if he still does. I don’t know. Just because he doesn’t agree with you does not make him an idiot: so he uses different sources than you: so? So should WE call you an idiot for that? Who is insulting whom? He did not really insult Rivka, he pointed out weaknesses he picked up in her arguments. A debate, pure and simple. The fact that he called her views “hippykeit” is not a personal insult, it is a criticism of her opinions; and that’s perfectly allowed in a debate; he didn’t call her any bad name. He is not the kind to insult people at all, I know him personally. He is a very decent man, just very opinionated. So??? I think you owe him an apology.

      Reply
      • Rivka Levy
        Rivka Levy says:

        Just to be clear, Daisy, I agree with much of what you are saying, BUT he also did insult me personally, over email. And he’s also been insulting Rabbenu a lot over email, too.

        Just I didn’t put all his comments up on the blog.

        So, there seems to be something of ‘mida kneged mida’ going on here, for M.

        Reply
      • Yossi
        Yossi says:

        One can be a talmid chacham and still be rotten to the core. Knowledge does not equal wisdom. M clearly has little derech eretz, has anger and arrogance issues, and is rather immature. I would never say this except that he is anonymous and apparently agreed to allow his ridiculous assertions to be published. He needs to grow up, watch his words, and carry himself like proper Jew.

        Reply
        • Daisy
          Daisy says:

          He is NOT rotten to the core at all; he doesn’t follow your Rav: who says every Jew has to have the same Haskhafah? There are 12 Tribes in Israel ( granted, 10 vanished, still the concept remains), and we all have different roles to play in this world. For some, Rav Meir Kahane, HY”D, was perfect; for some Rabbi Nachman was perfect: does everybody have to hold by other rabbonim’s beliefs? Definitely not. So leave him alone, and have a bit of respect for his views; all your finger pointing only shows your own immaturity and anger. Granted, at times he does have anger issues and he should apologize to Rivka for having insulted her privately; still, that does not give you the right to insult him! And if he does not relate to Rabbi Nachman, so what? He is following his own Derech, not yours! Maybe this blog is not his cup of tea; is Rav Meir Kahane yours?

          Reply
          • Rivka Levy
            Rivka Levy says:

            You are making a lot of important points, thanks Daisy.

            For what it’s worth, my view is that everyone has to respect the basic right of the other to hold opinions that they disagree with, without descending into personal insults.

            If people have issues with others who go to Uman for Rosh Hashana, for example, I can understand why that would seem strange or even ‘wrong’ to them. BUT, they still have to respect that my experience of going to Uman for Rosh Hashana, my take on it, is based on things that they perhaps have no knowledge of, or haven’t experienced personally themselves.

            It boils down to having more humility, and to know that we don’t know everything, even when we know a lot. So many times, I’ve had to try to catch myself from falling into ‘arrogant’ mode with all this research etc that I’m doing, to not just automatically flip into harsh judgement mode.

            The actions of people like Jonathan Eybshutz, for example, totally disgust me. But I understand that the man still possessed some good, and that all human beings are a composite picture of good and bad.

            The whole inyan here is to continue to honor and respect the good in each person, while calling out and challenging the ‘bad’, from a place of real humility, and of understanding that we are also made up of good and bad, and that we also have our blind spots, and our bad middot, and our issues.

            Once we get that, we can still ‘challenge bad’, or argue with ideas we find wrong, but we do it in a much more gentle way, and we respect the person on the other side of the argument way more.

      • Shimshon
        Shimshon says:

        Daisy, his entire premise is wrong. It’s not about different sources. His use of the sources he quotes makes no sense at all.

        “Well someone infinitely greater than him, the Rambam wrote in Hilchut Melachim Perek 11… that one of the qualifications of Moshiach ben David as to how he will prove that he’s the real deal… the genuine article is by fighting the wars necessary to liberate the land and people of israel… bring back all of the exiled yidden from the four corners of the earth and if it isn’t already built before his arrival then he will build the third and final bayit…”

        Is Moshiach here that this statement (or entire discussion) even had a point? No. He is projecting that desire onto our current situation. He is agitating for war for no reason whatsoever. If…IF…the government were to wage a real war with a goal of total victory in Gaza, and called on all the Jews to rally to the cause, that would be one thing. I would support such an endeavor. Even with all the potential consequences Rivka raises. But they haven’t, and never intend to. This is why I too am against all the Gaza campaigns. I’m with Rivka that these wars are stagecraft and are never intended to be won or resolve anything (at least, I think this is her position on the matter).

        He also projects all sorts of spurious notions onto Rivka’s (and by extension everyone who is of like mind) motivations. He puts words into her mouth that were never uttered.

        Claiming that she endorses Shaul’s reticence in destroying Amalek, accusations of being merciful to the cruel, being okay with Arab terrorism. And the like. These are insulting and demeaning and entirely false and are strawmen he constructed to put her down. His whole tone is of one of serious condescension, not respect.

        We also know that very smart people can act very stupidly if they lack curiosity or discernment. My brother is much smarter than me, for example, with an IQ over 140 (less than 0.1% of the population rises to such a level), and yet he and his family got all their shots and boosts. He was mystified why we didn’t, and was not prepared or capable of hearing anything about that. You can be very smart…and still be a total retard.

        Reply
  2. Elisheva
    Elisheva says:

    If the new version JCPOA is approved there’s going to be no choice for Israel, which is being abandoned by its ‘allies’, but to turn to its only real defender, HKBH.
    The IDF will realise that it can only defeat the enemy with H” as the CIC.

    Reply
  3. Hava
    Hava says:

    It is really all about our leadership, which doesn’t seem to want to resolve any of our serious problems, especially those concerning our enemies both without and within our midst. Our outward focus needs to be on pressuring our government to be serious when it comes to serious matters! And our inward focus needs to be on increasing our holiness, including our understanding (for those who are in Israel, those who have Israel in their hearts and want to be here, and those who for whatever reason were here and haven’t returned) of why Jews should be in Israel regardless of these crazy circumstances. (I have written the priorities in reverse, of course. 😉 )

    At some point the scales should tip from their side to ours, be”H.

    I realized that all the examples I brought to the last post have Him speaking with and working with the LEADERS of the country. Gid’on was a leading judge; the Maccabees were leading Kohanim. Compared to them, our “leaders” today are lower than low. Apparently that’s the way their masters the nations want it.

    I read once on the internet in the 1990s (or possibly the early 2000s) that the US and a country here (Iran? Saudi Arabia? One of the countries we have Abraham Accords agreements with? I forget…) in 1975 agreed that they had to keep Israel small and dependent, with borders as indefensible as possible. The last thing they want is for us to be strong and self-reliant (at least in their view).

    I can’t even find it on the wayback machine.

    I think we hide our leadership’s corruption because we’re under the impression that the backlash would affect every single Jew everywhere, but especially here. As it is, the haters hate all Jews for the sins of a few, or the sins of our leadership, and give no sympathy to the victims who hate these sins as much, if not more, than they do. Including the fact that our media are under the control of these evil ones.

    People wonder why Israel’s PR office doesn’t respond to insults properly, sometimes not at all…it still doesn’t make sense to me either.

    Reply
    • Rivka Levy
      Rivka Levy says:

      Possibly, because a lot of the horrible things Israel is accused of (the State…) may often be true…

      Remember that last little ‘war’ with Gaza, where the Palestinians claimed that the IDF had hit a home where they killed 5 children, but the IDF said it was a Palestinian rocket misfiring? Well, the IDF lied… It was the Israeli airforce that bombed it.

      https://www.rt.com/news/560382-israel-gaza-rocket-misfire/ – initial statement from the IDF.

      And then this was slipped out quietly, a week later:

      “Israel has acknowledged that it was responsible for the killing of five Gazan children during the recent onslaught against the besieged enclave, after initial reports blamed Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s misfired rockets for the killing of the minors.”

      https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2022/08/16/687470/Israel-admits-killing-of-five-Gaza-children-while-initial-reports-blame-Islamic-Jihad

      On the plus side, BH they actually acknowledged it publically, something the Americans never would have done. But it makes the point, again, that even ‘targeted, pinpoint, apparently moral’ violence still kills an awful lot of innocent people.

      Reply
  4. Hava
    Hava says:

    “Possibly, because a lot of the horrible things Israel is accused of (the State…) may often be true…”

    I’m sure it is! In fact, these things are probably most often true, if not totally true. But the blame gets put on all Jews. Or, at least, the ptb would like it that way, so that we end up defending them instead of opposing them as we should.

    But I can’t find the original link to HaAretz’s admission on any of the Muslim news sites, the two browsers I use most, or on HaAretz’s own site. I would think that if we are to be accused of horrific things like this, these enemies would back up their statement by providing a link. It’s the least they can do — that is, if we’re the liars and they’re the truthful ones.

    Sadly, there’s not as much truth as we need out there…

    Reply
    • Rivka Levy
      Rivka Levy says:

      Yes, I saw the original on Ha’Aretz a couple of weeks ago but didn’t save the link, and now I also can’t find it.

      I guess that’s another way they get their admissions out there, technically, in a way that just don’t register publically.

      It’s all manipulation, isn’t it?

      Reply
  5. Moshe
    Moshe says:

    first of all when rav kahane spoke those things out of throwing the arabs out it was in the mid 1980’s before they had all their present day weaponry and arsenals of missiles surrounding eretz yisroel… second of all when he said what he wants he’s speaking from halacha what G-d wants not what he personally wanted to see implemented… he was a huge talmud chacham and a deep thinker into the ratzon Hashem as conveyed within the torah the t’nach the mishna and the gemora with all of the medrashim and the perushim of chazal… so nothing he said was an inch off or away from what the torah commands us to do… his main problem which i see still persists to this very day with you all on here is that k’lal yisroel do not seem to understand that torah applies always and must be observed and put into practice despite whatever ruling authorities over us think about it all… the erev rav hate the torah and Hashem and well that’s just too bad for them and for us as well as we are obligated to fight them on this tooth and nail and call for torah law to be the law of the land because it IS the law of the land and Hashem has been punishing us all severely over there and all around the world as well for our not at least being willing to stand up and protest loudly often and heatedly that torah… all of it… must be put into practice immediately… the rabbis and gedolim are also at fault for not holding daily press conferences to clearly enunciate the ratzon Hashem and call the israeli govt out on their sinful failure to comply with Hashem’s demands mandates and commands… these elitist slime’s arrogance to seize power over the land without implementing the true law of the land is a chillul Hashem that we all must protest strenuously constantly and vociferously to show Hashem and each other that we are indeed at least trying to stand up for k’vod shamayim and replace chillul Hashem with kiddush Hashem… and the measure of our mesirat nefesh here will determine how successful Hashem will allow us to become… just like back in the era of the chashmanoiim…

    lastly for the time being… here is what i think of the dire situation we are all in… the most important thing for the am Hashem to get done is to push forward and see that the beit hamikdash (bayit shlishi) is built… this will solve all of our problems… but we can’t do it because the arabs are in the way and would riot and go completely berzerk when we take down their three mosques up there on har habayit… so then we have to throw them all out as is the mitzvah anyhow in the torah which i will explain later why no goyim are allowed to live in eretz yisroel if they were there on the land before we got there under yehoshua (concerning the 7 canaanite nations) or the goyim who were or are on the land when we get back after the exile (i.e. the arabs)… this is according to the abarbanel and the ramban… all must go so that they will not be a thorn in our sides and needles in our eyes as the pasuk reads in parshat masei (bamidbar 33:53)… more on all of this later…

    but we can’t remove the arabs like we’re supposed to according to halacha because of the filthy erev rav unjudean rot of an israeli govt who are all standing in our way preventing us from ridding the land of our enemies… so the mitzvah first now becomes to get rid of them… either at the ballot box by bringing millions of like-minded yidden to eretz yisroel to vote these slime out of power or without them if we can’t get our brothers and sisters to move there enmasse soon enough to do this then by rav meir’s idea of a referendum to dissolve the current govt knesset and political system and install a govt that will comply with torah law and send the arabs packing… for this u have to read his book referendum or revolution… where he calls for just such a plebiscite to be held and explains fully the details… alternatively he mentions… mind u… not threatens a revolution… he says if u don’t honor the people’s desire and will for an end to the arab problem by direct vote u will eventually force the populace into a rebellion as they see themselves and their kids slaughtered more and more in terror attacks within the state…

    he also was pursuing the concept of secession to an eretz yehuda breaking off in the west bank and declaring their independence in order to head off or block the israeli govt from forcing a two state solution down our throats as he feared was coming and indeed did later pan out in part so far starting with oslo in 1993 three yrs after they murdered him to get him out of the way because of the holy hell they knew he would have raised (and justifiably so) had he still been alive at the time that the erev rav govt went for a “peace” agreement which has proven to have brought in its wake absolutely none whatsoever… so as rav meir put it back then… at least if we couldn’t have one whole israeli state of yidden on the entire land then there would be two yiddishe states instead of one but no arab state… at least this he said would save us from self-destruction… they even voted him provisional president at a secessionist convention in yerushalayim where they pronounced that should the state of israel ever attempt to give away yehuda v’shomron these settler yidden were prepared to declare their independence and separate themselves from the erev rav state of khazarian/sabatean “jews”… obviously the reshayim didn’t like this none too much and had him assassinated…

    so to review…

    we can’t build the third temple because the arabs are in the way… and we can’t rid the land of this impediment to our goal because the erev rav govt is in the way… but we can’t remove them from power because they are too strong for us and would never allow any petition for redress of our grievances and would refuse any and all referendums (or falsify their results) nor would they allow a million torah observant yidden to come on aliyah all at once and vote them out of existence the very first election that they are eligible to participate in… so we’re stuck… i used to say next that therefore we need a new revolution like the chanukah story… another chashmanoiim uprising… but nowadays i say this wouldn’t work either even if we had the courage and the numbers to attempt it because the rabonim and gedolim are in the way with their cowardice… having sold out long ago at the inception of the wicked state to the erev rav sabateans making the rabonim no better than the evil members of the memshelet zadon al haaretz… and now u rivka come along with your excellent research into the genealogy of everyone and show us that these rabonim and their erev rav slime cohorts all emanate from THE VERY SAME FAMILIES!!! so now what do we do…? where does that all leave us…? i don’t know… i’m still working on it… to be continued… truth.out…

    Reply
    • Rivka Levy
      Rivka Levy says:

      But where does God fit into this picture, Moshe?

      The rules of emuna state 1) that God is doing everything, God is causing all this to be stuck.

      The second rule is, that God is doing all this for our good, our highest good, even if it’s difficult and painful.

      The third rule is, that God is doing this stuff to effect some sort of change, teshuva, here.

      You say that the ‘change required’ is that we round up the Arabs and throw them out, then forcibly build the Third Temple.

      But maybe, the change required is that we work on our own bad middot, our own anger, vengeance, violent tendencies, sinat chinam, and chuck out our own ‘klei Hamas’, and start turning to God to fix our national issues instead?

      How do you know God wants more violent action here? If He really wanted that to happen, it would be happening…. Maybe, God really just wants some sincere teshuva, and humility to know that the only One who can really solve our problems is God?

      Remember, Moshe Rabbenu was barred from entering Eretz Yisrael because he ‘took action’ and hit the rock, instead of speaking to it.

      There is a precedent here.

      Reply
      • Moshe
        Moshe says:

        Nothing is my opinion… nothing is rav meir’s opinion… everything we say has sources in halacha… psak din…

        Rav meir used to say no rishonim or acharonim argue on any of the points he brought down in his magnum opus the light of the authentic jewish idea… sefer Rayon Hayehudi… he says only in our generation is there any argument or objection… any dispute between the rambam et al against modern poskim… and basically since these debates never raged before about land for peace etc…
        Basically u must chalk it up to subjectivity… personal bias of these rabbis based upon abject fear of the goyim and absolute terror of the erev rav slime… they just throw rabbis in jail for writing what I just wrote or they go up to them and tell them if they persist “an accident” might befall one of their children or grandchildren…

        No more trouble out of rabbi x… some just get paid off and sell their principles to the highest bidder… whole of life as we experience it just sickens me… but I have no negiyot… none whatsoever… I pursue the emet and nothing but the emet…

        If the halacha came out like u say it does I would have no problem accepting the word and will of Hashem because all I’m interested in is Hashem’s emet… but it doesn’t so I go upon my lonely path only seeking the truth of torah… the real truth… the only truth…truth only out.always…

        Reply
        • Rivka Levy
          Rivka Levy says:

          Halachic rulings – how the halacha actually applies to real and changing circumstances – is ALWAYS a matter of the posek’s opinion, after he goes through the sources, the different traditions, and tries to apply them to a real-life, actual issue.

          That’s the whole deal with the oral law, that is ‘flexible’ and gives the rabbis of each generation the ability to deal with new circumstances, and to extrapolate principles out.

          I’m no expert on halacha, so I’ll throw this out to others who know more, but it seems clear that all poskim give an ‘opinion’ based on sources.

          No?

          Reply
  6. Daisy
    Daisy says:

    I love it, Rivka and Moshe: Baruch Hashem! Finally we are in a real, honest to G-d debate without bad blood, that’s the way it’s supposed to be. Maybe finally we will come to a consensus and truth will spring out of this berur? B”H!

    Reply
    • Rivka Levy
      Rivka Levy says:

      Amen!

      Moshe and I made our peace over email, and we’re moving forward working together, to continue to try to figure out what is really going on here, and how best to deal with it all, tachlis, the way God wants.

      And that, for sure, is a big part of what God wants here.

      Reply
      • Daisy
        Daisy says:

        Mazel Tov! I know, it’s already Shabbat by you, but still, first of all Shabbat Shalom, and I am also glad to hear these wonderful tidings.

        I hope I get to pitch in too!!😀

        Reply
  7. moshe parry
    moshe parry says:

    well after shabbos i’ll have more to add to the debate… no posek gives his own opinion… he rules with the siyata d’shemayah that Hashem invests upon the dayanim and poskim… rashi and the rambam were not rendering opinions… they were laying down torah law and truth… clarifying halacha… also… G-d does rule over and control everything but that doesn’t mean He wants us to just sit back and resign ourselves to misery and torture… and to do nothing until He comes and frees us and takes care of our adversaries….never did Hashem ever speak in terms of our not trying to “unstuck” (extricate ourselves) from our problems… these are the tests of bitachon He puts us thru in life and down thru history… if we’re just supposed to just wait around for Hashem to act all the time then david hamelech would never have gone out to face goliyot and the chashmanoiim would never have arose to confront the hellenists who were destroying torah judaism and trampling upon the kedusha of the beit hamikdash… both of these incidents were examples where righteous and holy yidden confronted chillul Hashem with the only thing that removes it… kiddush Hashem… truth.out…

    Reply

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